Board index Religion Islam The Reality of Islam

The Reality of Islam

Discuss islam here

Moderators: cato, BORG

Post Wed Jul 11, 2012 3:16 am
Jim User avatar
Duke
Duke

Posts: 234
Location: Land of Cotton, USA
Slogan: "They may kill you but they won't eat you"
This is a really good article by Sam Harris <the Atheist so he has no dogmatic ax to grind> about some of the realities of Islam that the politically correct amongst us would have us ignore.

Note: the article is a few years old so some of the "current events" are a few years out of step but the points remain valid


"In recent days, crowds of thousands have gathered throughout the Muslim world—burning European embassies, issuing threats, and even taking hostages—in protest over 12 cartoons depicting the Prophet Muhammad that were first published in a Danish newspaper last September. The problem is not merely that the cartoons were mildly derogatory. The furor primarily erupted over the fact that the Prophet had been depicted at all. Many Muslims consider any physical rendering of Muhammad to be an act of idolatry. And idolatry is punishable by death. Criticism of Muhammad or his teaching—which was also implicit in the cartoons—is considered blasphemy. As it turns out, blasphemy is also punishable by death. So pious Muslims have two reasons to “not accept less than a severing of the heads of those responsible,” as was recently elucidated by a preacher at the Al Omari mosque in Gaza.


The religious hysteria has not been confined to the “extremists” of the Muslim world. Seventeen Arab governments issued a joint statement of protest, calling for the punishment of those responsible. Pakistan’s parliament unanimously condemned the drawings as a “vicious, outrageous and provocative campaign” that has “hurt the faith and feelings of Muslims all over the world.” Turkey’s prime minister, Recep Tayyip Erdogan, while still seeking his nation’s entry into the European Union, nevertheless declared that the cartoons were an attack upon the “spiritual values” of Muslims everywhere. The leader of Lebanon’s governing Hezbollah faction observed that the whole episode could have been avoided if only the novelist Salman Rushdie had been properly slaughtered for writing “The Satanic Verses.”


Let us take stock of the moral intuitions now on display in the House of Islam: On Aug. 17, 2005, an Iraqi insurgent helped collect the injured survivors of a car bombing, rushed them to a hospital and then detonated his own bomb, murdering those who were already mortally wounded as well as the doctors and nurses struggling to save their lives. Where were the cries of outrage from the Muslim world? Religious sociopaths kill innocents by the hundreds in the capitols of Europe, blow up the offices of the U.N. and the Red Cross, purposefully annihilate crowds of children gathered to collect candy from U.S. soldiers on the streets of Baghdad, kidnap journalists, behead them, and the videos of their butchery become the most popular form of pornography in the Muslim world, and no one utters a word of protest because these atrocities have been perpetrated “in defense of Islam.” But draw a picture of the Prophet, and pious mobs convulse with pious rage. One could hardly ask for a better example of religious dogmatism and its pseudo-morality eclipsing basic, human goodness.


It is time we recognized—and obliged the Muslim world to recognize—that “Muslim extremism” is not extreme among Muslims. Mainstream Islam itself represents an extremist rejection of intellectual honesty, gender equality, secular politics and genuine pluralism. The truth about Islam is as politically incorrect as it is terrifying: Islam is all fringe and no center. In Islam, we confront a civilization with an arrested history. It is as though a portal in time has opened, and the Christians of the 14th century are pouring into our world.


Islam is the fastest growing religion in Europe. The demographic trends are ominous: Given current birthrates, France could be a majority Muslim country in 25 years, and that is if immigration were to stop tomorrow. Throughout Western Europe, Muslim immigrants show little inclination to acquire the secular and civil values of their host countries, and yet exploit these values to the utmost—demanding tolerance for their backwardness, their misogyny, their anti-Semitism, and the genocidal hatred that is regularly preached in their mosques. Political correctness and fears of racism have rendered many secular Europeans incapable of opposing the terrifying religious commitments of the extremists in their midst. In an effort to appease the lunatic furor arising in the Muslim world in response to the publication of the Danish cartoons, many Western leaders have offered apologies for exercising the very freedoms that are constitutive of civil society in the 21st century. The U.S. and British governments have chastised Denmark and the other countries that published the cartoons for privileging freedom of speech over religious sensitivity. It is not often that one sees the most powerful countries on Earth achieve new depths of weakness, moral exhaustion and geopolitical stupidity with a single gesture. This was appeasement at its most abject.


The idea that Islam is a “peaceful religion hijacked by extremists” is a dangerous fantasy—and it is now a particularly dangerous fantasy for Muslims to indulge. It is not at all clear how we should proceed in our dialogue with the Muslim world, but deluding ourselves with euphemisms is not the answer. It now appears to be a truism in foreign policy circles that real reform in the Muslim world cannot be imposed from the outside. But it is important to recognize why this is so—it is so because the Muslim world is utterly deranged by its religious tribalism. In confronting the religious literalism and ignorance of the Muslim world, we must appreciate how terrifyingly isolated Muslims have become in intellectual terms. The problem is especially acute in the Arab world. Consider: According to the United Nations’ Arab Human Development Reports, less than 2% of Arabs have access to the Internet. Arabs represent 5% of the world’s population and yet produce only 1% of the world’s books, most of them religious. In fact, Spain translates more books into Spanish each year than the entire Arab world has translated into Arabic since the ninth century.


Our press should report on the terrifying state of discourse in the Arab press, exposing the degree to which it is a tissue of lies, conspiracy theories and exhortations to recapture the glories of the seventh century. All civilized nations must unite in condemnation of a theology that now threatens to destabilize much of the Earth. Muslim moderates, wherever they are, must be given every tool necessary to win a war of ideas with their coreligionists. Otherwise, we will have to win some very terrible wars in the future. It is time we realized that the endgame for civilization is not political correctness. It is not respect for the abject religious certainties of the mob. It is reason."

Linkie

Post Wed Jul 11, 2012 5:40 am
Spot of Borg User avatar
The Borg
The Borg

Posts: 1440
Location: Delta Quadrant
Slogan: You may be Assimilated

Gawd. It was going along fine until it got to where it said "mainstream islam" then I realised it was more propaganda. Are muslims blowing up buses in america? In australia? Are they slaughtering ppl anywhere but certain occupied countries? I grew up in muslim countries and they didnt bother me. They are less intrusive than xtians imo.

Of course i would like all religions done away with. If there was no religion they would all have to find some other excuse to kill each other.

Spot
Image . . "Cry MEOW! And eat the butterflies of war!"

Post Wed Jul 11, 2012 11:06 am
Jim User avatar
Duke
Duke

Posts: 234
Location: Land of Cotton, USA
Slogan: "They may kill you but they won't eat you"
"Mainstream Islam itself represents an extremist rejection of intellectual honesty, gender equality, secular politics and genuine pluralism."

That's not talking about bombs Spot, that's referring to the mindset of your garden variety everyday adherent.

Sure you can say that all supernatural belief systems have nuts like these in their membership but virtually without exception these elements are considered "fringe" by the members themselves much less the rest of us and are a very clear minority of the overall whole. Islam's difference is not that the views themselves are present but the breadth to which these extreme views are accepted by everyday adherents. We're dealing with doctrinal fundamentals that are the bedrock of their belief system. Moreover, these beliefs and their manifestations predate the existence of Israel, The US, Australia, The UK and virtually every other western civilization so whatever occupations are in play would appear to not be causal. Their entire history is filled with examples of violently imposing dogma on anyone silly enough to get within arm's reach back to the Prophet himself when he sought to expand his influence from Medina. 1400 years later nothing has changed.

I was like you and every other enlightened soul on this issue because I was projecting MY ethics and my incredulity into my opinion maker. Then, I read the Quran... tough read, took me about 6 mns to examine it carefully and I walked away changed. All religions have some degree of detriment to the people unlucky enough to be exposed but Islam is far and away the worst I have every encountered due mostly to how openly it disdains anyone who is not of the faith and it's prescriptions for their treatment much less it's rampant misogyny, extreme lack of tolerance and intellectual retardation.

Call me what you will but in the worst case this dogma could represent the greatest threat civilization has ever faced, far greater than the Catholics at the height of their power ever dreamed much less were capable of. It's not even close and this is due almost entirely to the reality that the moderate Islamist is a myth; that they are as the author succinctly stated "All Fringe and No Center".

Post Wed Jul 11, 2012 11:35 am
Spot of Borg User avatar
The Borg
The Borg

Posts: 1440
Location: Delta Quadrant
Slogan: You may be Assimilated

Jim wrote:
Islam's difference is not that the views themselves are present but the breadth to which these extreme views are accepted by everyday adherents.


So says the media. The everyday adherents of xtianity believe the rubbish about women etc too but like i said its not socially acceptable to enforce it in "western countries" so they cant. Muslims that come to australia abide by australian laws They have to. Just like xtians.

Jim wrote:
We're dealing with doctrinal fundamentals that are the bedrock of their belief system.


Come on Jim. You have read that xtian bible.

Like I said in practice I have had far less problems with muslims than I have with xtians. Muslims come to australia and they abide by our laws. Not only that but they dont accost you in the street trying to convert you. They dont knock on your door uninvited.

Jim wrote:
Their entire history is filled with examples of violently imposing dogma on anyone silly enough to get within arm's reach back to the Prophet himself when he sought to expand his influence from Medina. 1400 years later nothing has changed.


Yup. Its a religion.

The "west" hasnt been "civilised" for that long in the scheme of things. Couple hundred years - thats all. These ppl still live by the sword. You put them in a western society and the majority adapt like the xtians. You get extremists yup. dont need to point out all religions have those. Not only that but they are being actively targeted by the world with hatred. How would you react? Get more violent? Prolly.

Jim wrote:
I was like you and every other enlightened soul on this issue because I was projecting MY ethics and my incredulity into my opinion maker. Then, I read the Quran... tough read, took me about 6 mns to examine it carefully and I walked away changed.


Yeah. And your perspective was xtianity and the xtian bible which you were used to from an early age. You know which parts of the book are supposed to be figurative. Seriously Jim i am an outsider to both religions. No religious indoctrination @ all through my childhood and both books seemed the same to me. I dont know which parts of EITHER book are supposed to be figurative. Some minor differences but basically the same. Both books were written in a time in the middle east that that was the way ppl lived. Stonings and killings and sacrifices and wars and crap.

Jim wrote:
All religions have some degree of detriment to the people unlucky enough to be exposed but Islam is far and away the worst I have every encountered due mostly to how openly it disdains anyone who is not of the faith and it's prescriptions for their treatment much less it's rampant misogyny, extreme lack of tolerance and intellectual retardation.


Heh like the Jews? Seriously they have literal and figurative parts of their book too. do you know which parts of their book are figurative? I dont. However I expect it works like the xtian one and every now and then something has to change so another part is designated figurative. Its how they stop the violence. Its how the xtians stopped most of it and its a painful process and the muslims have a ways to go yet.

Jim wrote:
"All Fringe and No Center".


Seriously mate? Have you ever talked to a muslim? There is one in this forum. I will see if he is willing to come talk to us about it. There are radicals but when I see the word "mainstream" being bandied about I know its going to be this crap. I have lived in muslim countries. They didnt bother me. They didnt care what i did or didnt believe. I was no threat to them.

The muslims in your country - are they peaceful?

Here we get some criminal youth in gangs but those gangs have always existed and they are populated by the youth in the area so some areas have a lot of Lebanese @ the moment. They arent all muslims though as the media would have you believe.

Article wrote:
In Islam, we confront a civilization with an arrested history. It is as though a portal in time has opened, and the Christians of the 14th century are pouring into our world.


Well its like that in their world. Its the same world the xtians came from. But in our world they behave like us.

Spot
Image . . "Cry MEOW! And eat the butterflies of war!"

Post Wed Jul 11, 2012 11:39 am
Brendiggg User avatar
The Borg
The Borg

Posts: 703
Location: India
Slogan: An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind (unless you are a fly)

I'm gonna echo Jim here.

The recent airing of that poor woman being shot in Afghanistan (thank christ Ramp didn't see fit to grave-dance over that) really does highlight genuine issues within the Islamic community. The sheer number of cheering spectators was horrifying. It wasn't done in a small room with a handful of Jihadists.

Spot, your position is understandable. Muslims are a minority in Western countries and that makes them an easy target. I'm jacked with defending them and I'm jacked with holding double standards. Their holy book is no different to the Bible in that it's an indefensible manual for wholesale slaughter.

I'd rather stand for gender equality than barbarity.

Post Wed Jul 11, 2012 11:42 am
Spot of Borg User avatar
The Borg
The Borg

Posts: 1440
Location: Delta Quadrant
Slogan: You may be Assimilated

Yeah. My point (all that typing may have obscured it) is that they are barbaric in the countries that allow that kind of barbarism but not in others. You dont see this shit in Malaysia. IMO no religion should have any say in anything to do with politics. Organised religion needs to die out.

Mate did you see how many were cheering when Saddam was lynched? I mean HERE? In this country? Supposed civilised ppl?

Spot
Image . . "Cry MEOW! And eat the butterflies of war!"

Post Wed Jul 11, 2012 11:58 am
Brendiggg User avatar
The Borg
The Borg

Posts: 703
Location: India
Slogan: An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind (unless you are a fly)

You are correct that secular law diminishes the worse excesses of religion. But vigilance is important. The 20th century saw a whole bunch of nasty regimes founded on nefarious creeds. They happened swiftly and ruthlessly.

Mate did you see how many were cheering when Saddam was lynched? I mean HERE? In this country? Supposed civilised ppl?


I was in another country at the time but I can well imagine yobbos cackling with delight. That said, Saddam's hanging, as wrong as it was, wasn't the worst injustice.

Post Wed Jul 11, 2012 1:30 pm
Jim User avatar
Duke
Duke

Posts: 234
Location: Land of Cotton, USA
Slogan: "They may kill you but they won't eat you"
Spot: "Come on Jim. You have read that xtian bible." "Yeah. And your perspective was xtianity and the xtian bible which you were used to from an early age."

Sure I have. More times than I can remember. However being a Catholic laddie for the first few decades I never read one till I was in my 20's for the first time. This should tell you something. It's not only worse, it's alot worse. Read it for yourself and you'll see what I mean.

But, that aside, let's for argument sake say that one was just as bad as the other. At the height of it's power in the 14th century which was the Christian Church at it's absolute worst the entire population of Europe was at best 20% of the population of the middle east alone so in terms of Scope and assuming an equal ratio of nutbags on either side your ability to cover real estate with psychopaths increases by a factor of 5 and a study of the two periods would seem to indicate that an equal ratio is delusional so this factor could be and most likely is many many many times worse. Were I venturing a guess I'd say more like 50.

I also get the impression that you're saying all bads are equal and because 700 years ago you perceive a religious entity was similarly bad to the current badness this somehow justifies the badness which I seriously don't get. Bad is still bad and repeating a known bad on a much larger scale is a much larger mistake than it was the first time.

Spot: "Like I said in practice I have had far less problems with muslims than I have with xtians. Muslims come to australia and they abide by our laws. Not only that but they dont accost you in the street trying to convert you. They dont knock on your door uninvited."

Anecdotal evidence aside, Muslims are 2% of the population. Other than a single occurrence I can claim similar experience. They are 2% of the population here as well. No one is going to act up when out numbered 50 to 1 unless they are mentally unstable or have a serious death wish. I think you'll also find that Muslim's as a general rule won't interact with the native culture as their teachings prohibit this so I'm not all that sure personal experience can be used to divine the nature of Islam world wide because it's quite likely that neither of us can count on such and be accurate except by dumb luck.

I noodled around quickly and found this, maybe it's not as sunshine and roses as you think


Youtube


Spot: "Seriously Jim i am an outsider to both religions."

And this is more hindrance than help because you equate all of them as equal due to their collective top tier belief in the supernatural. The primary difference between the christian and islamic dogmas is not religious, it's political. Islam is an integrated political/religious neo-fascist system which can and does have a profound difference in how they ultimately manifest which history would seem to bear out and their good book clearly states this which is a stark difference to the christian bible in all it's myriad manifestations including the Jew's version. All religions may be equally foolish but they are not all equal.

Spot: "Have you ever talked to a muslim? They didnt care what i did or didnt believe. I was no threat to them."

Bah, that's silly. First, certainly I have, done business with tons of them. Sat down and had some deep discussions with 2 of them on this very subject. Get yourself one who's in the faith and ask the right questions and the answers will make you go 0.o

I lived in europe for a few years, traveled a couple of times to Yugoslavia and caught a couple of day passes into E Berlin when both such places still actually existed which allowed me to interact quite a bit with totalitarian commies, particularly in Yugo as the travel policies there were not nearly as strict. Everyone I met was quite kind generally because I was no threat to them and I had GI money to burn which meant I smelled sweet to the locals and everyone had a big time cause Jim was in da House. Loved every minute of it, have very fond memories of the folks I met. Unrelated note: It's a goddamn crime what happened to Yugoslavia, that place had the prettiest white sand beaches this beach boy has ever seen.

This experience does not for a second validate totalitarian communist rule nor does this mean that because I have had similar experiences in Alabaster Alabama where there isn't a commie in sight that Alabaster and E Berlin are similarly yoked because of some cursory surface similarities and the fact that I enjoyed myself in both places.

Spot: "But in our world they behave like us."

Sure hope you don't live to regret that perception because NO muslim in the faith thinks like you, acts like you or sees you as anything other than some infidel that the Faith does not require just treatment of.

You should really sit down and read the Quran...

Post Wed Jul 11, 2012 3:16 pm
Spot of Borg User avatar
The Borg
The Borg

Posts: 1440
Location: Delta Quadrant
Slogan: You may be Assimilated

Yeah Jim the jewish religion is just as bad and xtian too. The practitioners though can be tolerable. Well not sure about the jews. I have talked to several jews lately. I am locked in argument with 1 in another forum but he served in the IDF and imo he is a terrorist. Then theres Aequitas (you know him) who seems quite a likeable fellow but he hasnt ever been to israel. He can see the situation from both sides kinda. The IDF guy though he says all muslims deserve to be killed. He even justifies the atrocities like torturing palestinian children. Ppl would say this is 2 extremes but IMO its 1 extreme and 1 rational even though both are religious.

I have known muslims. In australia even. the ones in australia have been adults though and while they had some radical beliefs they didnt care what i did or didnt do. I dont know any of the young ones but there are plenty here. They go to school with the rest of us. Of course they dont think like us. Nor do xtians. I cant work out WTF xtians are doing although i have learned to usually predict when theres going to be a blowup of some sort. In real life anyway online i still get caught out sometimes.

I didnt look @ your clip yet, Maybe later. I can see its john howard though which means it is going to be hilarious or BP raising. "The little liar" and sarcastically "honest john". Guilty of war crimes and treason. The guy is an arsehole.

However i am not saying not to hate them. Hate them all you like. Its a religion its worthy of scorn imo. I was just trying to explain that they are only really out of control in certain areas. Afghanistan etc. Ironically israel is in that part fo the world too. Heh. Funny how the countries where they are the most radical are the countries where they have been provoked.

I will come back tomorrow with a bigger screen because this is too hard. I cant see all of you post on this stupid screen. Ill have the big screen in the morning.

Spot
Image . . "Cry MEOW! And eat the butterflies of war!"

Post Wed Jul 11, 2012 3:41 pm
Spot of Borg User avatar
The Borg
The Borg

Posts: 1440
Location: Delta Quadrant
Slogan: You may be Assimilated

Okay I watched the clip. That guy was pretty bad. He is gone now. There was a big rucus about him and he isnt allowed back here. As for the israel thing yeah you gotta be careful what you say. If i said ANYTHING i say in these forums around here i would be in trouble cause of all the religious nuts.

Spot
Image . . "Cry MEOW! And eat the butterflies of war!"

Next

Return to Islam

cron